Evolution Isn't Even Logical

I believe the key there is "opening their minds to other possibilities..."

How do you decide which to believe? You do some research into the evidence for evolution, and you do some research into the evidence for Biblical creation. Most people obviously do not have time to devote their lives to research; for most people a few months of research into the evidence for both sides is enough to come to a reasonable conclusion.

However, when you look only at the claims, and not at the evidence, that's not an open mind. The people who wrote the seeded blog entry obviously didn't do much research into evolution. They didn't even have the claims correct, much less the evidence.

Ah, but you're wrong...

We're just monkeys with keyboards

We evolved from monkeys without keyboards and now we fling our poo electronically.

Don't forget, Vulgrin, that man made god in his own image.

Heh, I seem to remember saying that on another of these threads - sure seem to be a LOT of God-thumping threads lately...

If I were to make a god, I sure as hell wouldn't make it in MY image. I'd have made her someone like Jessica Alba... and she sure as hell wouldn't be nearly as vindictive or suspicious.

Yeah, but you couldn't @!$%# God anymore or even find her sexy, could you?

On a similar note, do you watch Moral Orel?

If I were to make a god, I sure as hell wouldn't make it in MY image. I'd have made her someone like Jessica Alba... and she sure as hell wouldn't be nearly as vindictive or suspicious.

Bit harsh to call Jessica Alba vindictive and suspicious… ;o)

ROFL - good catch!

Stolte, if you could *&$@ God, and she looked like Jessica Alba, I think it'd be the pinnacle of greatness. You would, simultaneously, be experiencing the climax of morality and of human desires.

Finally, the two united.

Matt, I completely agree... while science and faith occasionally overlap, they are completely different things with completely different aims and methodology. Science is the accumulation of observations that are compiled into repeatable experiments, for the purpose of coming up with a comprehensive way to understand the world around us (a bottom-up approach). Religion is the revelation from some outside source about a "truth", which sheds light on everyday life that would otherwise not be possible (a top-down approach). There are some things science cannot explain, and shouldn't attempt to explain, otherwise it's not science.

Christianity, specifically, is the belief that mankind is separated from God by sin, and God intervened to bridge the gap by sending his son to earth. That's it in a nutshell. My faith doesn't really require me to believe one theory or another about how I became be the humanoid that I am, with my white skin, hairless feet, and regrettable receding hairline. What's clear to me is that the things I want to do (and know I should)... well, I don't do them. And I do the things that I shouldn't. I'm not talking about some result of a repressive puritanical upbringing... I mean, there are things in my very heart I know to be true, yet I act against them. I am imperfect.

I'm not a scientist, so I can't prove or disprove evolution. Even if it's true, God loved us talking monkeys so much that he sent his son to be one of us. It's not about the diets, the money or even the science. Jesus asked one of his followers, "Who do you say that I am?" This is the central question of Christianity, not evolution or the roundness of the earth.

So people shouldn't use faith as a way to disprove science, or vice-versa. They have very little to do with each other.

At least 3.5 billion, and possibly as much as 3.9 billion. A billion years ago we already had multicellular life. Even more time :)

That's physics and cosmology, not evolution.

Sadly, Dr. Knowledge is no longer with us. He was shot dead by christian extremists while walking to his car saturday morning.

Sadly, when your science can not explain something that The Bible teaches us, you can only hide behind cynacism.

So is it cynicism when science can not explain something that the Iliad teaches us?

Note: the topic is "Evolution isn't even logical". Evolution is not about creation. And how do you know matter was created from nothing? Maybe it came from something... hmm, maybe it evolved.

Anything that the Bible "teaches us" which can't be explained by science is an opinion (like "Jesus Christ died for our sins"). Not very useful.

You call "God did it" an explanation?

What if I said "a ninja monkey did it with his pal, the rainbow-striped whale"? Is that an explanation, or "teaching"?

P.S. - Who says that there had to have been nothing at some point? Who decided that? You? God?

Science can not explain time, infinity or the creation of matter from no matter. Science can not explain love nor appreciation of beauty.

Science can not explain time, infinity or the creation of matter from no matter. Science can not explain love nor appreciation of beauty.

God can't either... Unless you assign meaning to that god you have created in your head. So what's your point?

Why can't science explain those things? In fact, science can explain matter from no matter. Matter can come from energy. Maybe you meant energy from no energy, in which case what is there to explain? There's no evidence that the energy in the Universe ever "came" from anything. For all we know it is eternal.

Science can certainly explain love (it's hormones), and explaining beauty is a matter of determining why our brains respond in certain ways to certain stimuli. It's not as romantic, but it's reality.

Now, Let's suppose for a minute that science can't explain something, though. Can religion? How could it? Any explanation that's not based in direct, observable reality is, in fact, arbitrary. And if it's arbitrary, then it's useless as an explanation. I could say that I can explain something with "God did it" or I can say that "the Invisible Pink Unicorn did it". What have I explained? Nothing. I just made something up.

Can religion?

EXACTLY! We might as well say Cupid shoots us in the heart with an arrow when we fall in love.

How sad it is that we would even begin to think about defining love or art through science and math.

How sad it is that we would even begin to think about defining love or art through science and math.

You miss the point, we don't define them through religion either. Love is a component of Christianity (or should be, if it weren't constantly hijacked by the fire and brimstone crowd), but it is not defined by it. Love is an emotion, and emotions are physical processess in our brains, thus they can be defined by science, but I for one don't care that my neurons are firing and my dopamine levels go up when I see a pretty girl. I feel what I feel and don't need anything to explain it, despite the fact that it can be explained. That is the point.

Why is it sad to try to understand how we work, TBone? I find it incredibly interesting.

If I have a choice between a vague, delusional, romantic fantasy about how love and art works or an evidence-based, scientific (even limited) understanding, then I will choose the latter every time. I prefer reality over fantasy.

How sad it is that we would even begin to think about defining love or art through science and math.

How sad is it that someone would prefer ignorance over understanding.

I'm currently enjoying a glorious sunset from my window, simply awe inspiring and majestic - understanding how and why it is happening does nothing to diminish the experience, in fact it enhances it.

How sad it is that we would even begin to think about defining love or art through science and math.

How sad it is that someone thinks he needs an imaginary superman to make himself think he can explain those things.

P.S. - What do you mean by "explain time [or] infinity"?

Douglass Adams put it quite well…

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

well it does have brain-exploding

Sexual reproduction is an area of much debate, but it's not nearly as big a problem as most people think it is. The general consensus is that sexual reproduction evolved at first as an alternative to asexual reproduction. That is, organisms could reproduce sexually or asexually. Sexual reproduction has a distinct advantage over asexual reproduction because it allows for more genetic variety. There are still some species today which can reproduce either way, so this theory is actually pretty likely.

The details of evolution may be difficult to understand. For instance, you may need to understand genetics at some level, but the idea itself is amazingly simple.

Evolution by Natural Selection is the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.

In a way, it's common sense.

For evolution to occur, we need the following:
1. A population of replicating/reproducing organisms
2. Replication must pass on the traits of the parent(s)
3. Replication must give rise to occasional differences from the parent(s)

If these three conditions are met, evolution must occur in some form. If there is a population of varied organisms, some will be better at reproducing than others. This will lead to a statistical drift in the population towards a set of traits that are better at surviving. This similar idea is what we call Natural Selection.

Personally I think that believing in God and that we were created for a purpose is a lot better then living a life with no hope for the future.

What, so there are only the two options - belief or despair…? Well I'm glad you cleared that up for me, thanks. Idiot.

God tells us to spread his word and if you dont want to hear it thats ur choice, but keep it to urself, what are u going to gain by puttin down other peoples beliefs?

Oh I see, so it's OK for the religious to ram their beliefs down the throats of others but non believers have to put up and shut up - well now you put it like that it seems so reasonable!

I hope u will have changed ur tune for the day of judgement comes.

Ah, the threat of eternal damnation - I wondered when the ugly threats would rear their head! They say that Christianity is love and kindness, this use of treats and fear is far more common in my experience - beleive this or you'll burn in hell sinner! - You lose any claim to righteousness when you sink to that level.

Personally I think that believing in God and that we were created for a purpose is a lot better then living a life with no hope for the future.

Personally I think that believing I have a Ferrari in the garage is a lot better than believing I have a Mazda, but every morning there is my little 323.

And 'wookie, well said.

I checked on this commenter. They just signed up and this is the only comment they have ever made on Newsvine. Probably someone from the article site being bitter :)

I checked on this commenter. They just signed up and this is the only comment they have ever made on Newsvine. Probably someone from the article site being bitter :)

Cool, maybe they'll get smarter here.

God tells us to spread his word and if you dont want to hear it thats ur choice, but keep it to urself, what are u going to gain by puttin down other peoples beliefs? I hope u will have changed ur tune for the day of judgement comes.

And what do the writers of the article gain by putting down others' beliefs, such as evolution, or someone's religious beliefs that disagree with theirs? Why don't you criticize them for that?

Oh George! I feel so sorry for you that you will suffer eternal torment for falling for that false prophet Jesus - you must accept the word of Muhammad immediately or suffer God's wrath! HEAVEN of HELL! Consider your way.

…or was it Shiva who'll be pissed. Actually, I think I meant Thor... or was it Hathor... damn, there's just so many of the buggers I get confused.

...anyway, you'd better be damn sure you picked the right God cus most people on the planet think you have done.

NONE of them died for YOUR sins, my friend, except the GOD-MAN, the Lord Jesus Christ! Those others are RELIGIOUS leaders who NEVER did anything to help men out of the obvious problems (sickness, diseases, hunger, etc) and eventually DEATH! The bible says, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is SIN; and the strength of sin is the law. But THANKS be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! Oh, I am FULLY PURSUADED that I have found the truth and it has set me FREE, since the bible says, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." But, you must see yourself like EVERY MAN that was ever born, ie, born in tresspasses and sins and as the bible again says "In SIN did your mother conceive you" and DEATH is the proof of that! If evolution was true, why does anyone care how anyone lives or why make progress on anything? What would be the point? Live like an animal, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die! But it is your HEART that causes you to have FEELINGS and EMOTIONS towards others, but of course they have been perverted and messed up. What you need to do is, Look unto Jesus the author and finisher of our FAITH, by the scripture that says, "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." I found him and I have eternal life according to the scriptures. How about you?

congratulations george, everyone on this thread is now dumber, for having read your religious bull.

WOW, don't you just LOVE the CAPS KEY!

So you are 'fully persuaded' on the basis of a bunch of inspirational quotes from an old book! Seems to me you just heard a nice fairy tale and decided that makes much more sense that reality without looking around to see what other explanations there are. You make so many assertions here, none of which you can back up with anything other than the notion that you (and probably your mates) reckon the book in question is true. If you want to convince me you're going to have to come up with a bit more than that.

I mean really, basing you entire interpretation of the nature of reality on one book doesn't strike you as foolish in any way…?

congratulations george, everyone on this thread is now dumber, for having read your religious bull.

Not me, luckily I jumped out in time.

Personally, I think Norse mythology has more of a ring to it - try this on for size…

…the forces of chaos will OUTNUMBER and OVERCOME the divine and human guardians of order. LOKI and his monstrous children will burst their bonds; the DEAD will SAIL from Niflheim to attack the living. Heimdall, the watchman of the gods, will summon the heavenly host with a BLAST ON HIS HORN. Then will ensue a FINAL BATTLE between order and chaos (Ragnarök), which the gods will lose, AS IS THEIR FATE. The gods, aware of this, will gather the FINEST WARRIORS, the Einherjar, to fight on their side when the day comes, but in the end they will be POWERLESS to prevent the world from descending into the CHAOS out of which it has once emerged; the gods and their world will be DESTROYED. There are two optimistic facts, however: Not only will chaos also be defeated, but a NEW, BETTER WORLD will emerge from the ASHES of the old one. Odin will be swallowed by Fenrir. THOR will kill Jörmungandr , but will drown in its VENOM. Loki will be the last to die, having taken a WOUND from Heimdall that, although was taken at the same time as Loki's wound on Heimdall, did not kill the god of chaos and fire so soon! courtesey of wikipedia, EMPHASIS added at random

...doesn't that stir anything in you?

The point being, any old pile of nonsense can sound impressive to the ill-informed and under-educated.

Jack, you totally ripped off my comment :)

I really, really think that you are playing us all for fools...

I hope so, although that would make me the gullible tit... hmmm

There is only one religion that God ever created and that was Jewish!

Dude, thanks for like, totally clearing that up for me, man. I was, like, sooo lost before you said that, dawg.

It is the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ that can turn you from darkness to light.

Awww nuts. The Jewish religion doesn't believe in the God-man Jesus Christ. Does this contradiction mean that everyone automatically goes to Hell?

Fudgemuffins.

The Jewish religion doesn't believe in the God-man Jesus Christ. Does this contradiction mean that everyone automatically goes to Hell?

Well, the devils believe and they tremble! What is your excuse? And yes, the wrath of God abideth on you NOW, but you can change that if you repent of yours sins and trust in the one who loveD you and gave himself for you. If you want him to be your judge and sentence you to your torment, that is YOUR choice. You can turn to him and live, or continue in your sin and die an eternal death! Repent or perish.

This is the reason I mock religious types. Repent or perish... so sad that you think you have to repent from being human.

If you want him to be your judge and sentence you to your torment, that is YOUR choice

Okay... I choose ... no, I don't want him to be my judge. Am I in the clear now?

Well, the devils believe and they tremble!

Wait, since devils are the embodiment of evil, wouldn't I be safer if I tried to be the exact opposite of a devil, and not believe?

And yes, the wrath of God abideth on you NOW

Oh holy s---! Where?! I... can't see this... God-wrath... thing. Is it abidething on me like a mosquito on my arm, or like my T-shirt, or what?

You know, your God is sorta emo, frankly. He's all angsty, hypersensitive, and gets wrathy too easily.

I thought we were living inside an alien computer simulation.

I mean really, basing you entire interpretation of the nature of reality on one book doesn't strike you as foolish in any way…? It makes more sense on basing your beliefs on 100,000 of CONFLICTING books, eh? I guess than YOUR God, just like Gen 3 has you pegged " For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The Devils light was just like yours.

Also written, "The point being, any old pile of nonsense can sound impressive to the ill-informed and under-educated. "

I have more education than you might care to think! I also have been awarded 5 US Patents and I have NO PROBLEM in the knowledge, wisdom and understanding given to us in THE BOOK! Its foolishness is greater than all of mens wisdom combined. You just love your sin and wickedness, that is why you are an evolutionist. Once you get over the fact that you are a NOBODY and that you are NOTHING to God, than you can be in a position where the Lord will reveal himself to you. For God resisteth the proud by giveth grace to the humble. Are you ready to meet thy God? You will in judgment as your Judge if you decide to continue in your foolishness.

You just love your sin and wickedness, that is why you are an evolutionist.

Boy do I love that delicious sin and wickedness, now with extra vice ;)

No, I'm an evolutionist because God made me an evolutionist.

God made me an atheist too :) Blame him if you have a problem with it, he's the omnipotent one.

George you know there are other translations of the Bible besides the KJV. Ones that don't sound all 'thee-and-thouey'.

It makes more sense on basing your beliefs on 100,000 of CONFLICTING books, eh?

Well, for a start the Bible conflicts with itself in numerous places - you'd think an omnipotent being would be able to get it down straight, eh?

And what beliefs am I basing on these multitudinous conflicting books exactly - I don't recall saying anything about having 'beliefs' of any kind? I have an understanding about the current state of human knowledge, am aware of various advances in and refinements to that knowledge, debates over the meaning/significance/implications of some of it, etc. etc. - but 'belief' in any of it as in a religious sense - nope. Does uncertainty scare you perhaps, why is it difficult to accept?

Furthermore - your argument would make sense if everyone who read your one book took the same meaning from it but you know they don't. There are people like you right across the world who completely accept the Bible and everything it says but have completely different understanding of it's meaning - many are just fine with evolution, some are gay bishops - who's to say God isn't speaking to them and you're the one with the Devils light blinding your eyes? Without some kind of external validation you have absolutely no way to tell. Once you sort out the problems with your own single book you can come complaining to me about conflicts in others, until then you have no argument.

I guess than YOUR God, just like Gen 3 has you pegged " For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The Devils light was just like yours.

What do you mean by 'your god'? I don't have one… Also, biblical quotes won't get you anywhere, it all sounds very impressive with all the 'ye's' and 'doth's' but unless you have a way to demonstrate anything it's a just fiction - and not particularly inventive fiction at that, unoriginal derivations of contemporaneous gnostic traditions: Virgin birth? Everyone had a virgin birth back then - par for the course…

I have more education than you might care to think! I also have been awarded 5 US Patents and I have NO PROBLEM in the knowledge, wisdom and understanding given to us in THE BOOK!

I didn't mean you specifically but it was flippant of me anyway - you're right, education has little to do with gullibility.

You just love your sin and wickedness, that is why you are an evolutionist.

What sin and wickedness are you referring to? And what do you mean by 'evolutionist'? - as though it's a club you sign up to. I'm no more an 'evolutionist' than I am a 'gravityist'.

Once you get over the fact that you are a NOBODY and that you are NOTHING to God, than you can be in a position where the Lord will reveal himself to you. For God resisteth the proud by giveth grace to the humble. Are you ready to meet thy God? You will in judgment as your Judge if you decide to continue in your foolishness.

What's with all this ancient verbiage? - 'resisteth', 'giveth', 'thy', etc. - what century are you from? Is it why you like the Bible perhaps, sounds very impressive and big, must be true…?

But anyway, to answer your point - I can perfectly well imagine a thing we might call a god, and i can perfectly well accept that I would be nothing in comparison - where does this get us in proving whether or not such an entity exists? I'm perfectly willing and ready to meet any god that cares to reveal itself to me - I have no pride clouding my ability to accept new things, I'm quite content to see myself as an infinitesimally insignificant creature in comparison to the universe, always have been - Ain't ever seen no gods tho, perhaps my standards of evidence are higher than yours?

Now, if you're just going to respond with more biblical quotes and empty 'sinner repent' style rhetoric I for one am going to ignore you, if you care to apply your 5-patent-capable brain to an answer of any merit I'd be happy to continue the debate. You already know what it's like to be an atheist with respect to all the other gods out there, why can't you go one god further…?

Well, for a start the Bible conflicts with itself in numerous places - you'd think an omnipotent being would be able to get it down straight, eh?

They are only conflicts in your mind. They all have an explanation and could be understood without much of a problem. This is the typical nonsense that gets spread around from typical unbelievers. Consider this that was spoken from a famous rider whose name escapes me: "It is not the things in the bible that I do not understand that bother me, it is the things that I do". Before you run to verses to find apparent contradictions, let us discuss section of scriptures such as Ro 1:18-31, 3:1-21, 4:1-6:23; Jn 3:1-21, Gal 1:1-24? As you can see, I am not about to run anyone around to single verses from all over the place so that I can come to any conclusion I want. What about it? There are NO ERRORS in the bible, ie the KJV!

---unless you have a way to demonstrate anything it's a just fiction---
EVERYTHING that has to do with the origin of life is taken by FAITH. Creationism is much more logical than evolution. You really have to have faith to believe in that nonsense. I hear that evolution has "demonstrable proof". What they have is a side show started by a monkey man who as a racist put black people and Jews on the bottom of the totem pole. No, the book is correct, the Lord made his creation "after its own kind".

---What's with all this ancient verbiage? - 'resisteth', 'giveth', 'thy', etc. - what century are you from?---
Would you complain if you were reading Chaucer or Shakespeare? The KJV bible was written using words that had a purity of power and exactness, with an English vocabulary that was simple, yet with sentence structures that are so specific in composition and grammar. The KJV bible is more than impressive, its logic and power cannot be matched by ANYTHING ever written or will ever be written.

---You already know what it's like to be an atheist with respect to all the other gods out there, why can't you go one god further…? ---
An atheist does not exist. He is a figment of ones imagination. To be "a"-theist would logically mean that God would have to exist, you just do not want to believe him. Saying there is "no God" is a logical fallacy created by ones excuse to do what he wants to do without believing he has to give an account. So men such as Hitler, Pol-pot, Stalin, the Popes, etc are just going to get away with millions they killed? The human race is the greatest example of STUPIDITY because it believes that "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes". If there is no God, I would take the side of those type of men! But I am thankful that the Lord "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If the bible was a fable, it is the best way to live!

Your shot.

Your shot.

I wish I could, but I cannot respond to nonsense.

George, please use the "quote" feature. It's hard to tell what you're saying and what other people are. Just select some text and hit "Quote" (right above the comment text area).

I'll just pick one of your most ridiculous claims:

An atheist does not exist. He is a figment of ones imagination. To be "a"-theist would logically mean that God would have to exist, you just do not want to believe him. Saying there is "no God" is a logical fallacy created by ones excuse to do what he wants to do without believing he has to give an account.

Being an "a-Unicornist" would logically mean that Unicorns have to exist, right? Saying "there are no Unicorns" is a logical fallacy created by ones excuse to not have to wear the rainbow-colored clothes that the Her Majesty the Invisible Pink Unicorn has commanded you to wear. You just want to do what you want with no accountability.

Seriously, though, explain to me why not believing something exists necessarily implies that that thing does in fact exist.

Also, please don't make an ass of yourself by assigning intentions to people. I've been an atheist for years, and I've known a lot of atheists (being a leader of an atheist group in college). I can't name a single one who thought he could do anything he wants, or who disbelieved because he didn't want to believe because he might be held accountable. Not a single one. This is a tactic used by evangelists to demonize atheists and guilt-trip the fence-sitters into believing. I don't know if you've done things in your life that you feel guilty for or what, but don't pretend to know what other people's motivations are. You just make yourself look like an idiot.

They are only conflicts in your mind. They all have an explanation and could be understood without much of a problem. This is the typical nonsense that gets spread around from typical unbelievers.

Really, well I'd like to hear some explaining done then - you can't just make a statement like that and not back it up with any evidence. If it is nonsense then please enlighten us as to how it is not sensible to look at the Bible saying one thing in one place and the opposite in another and wonder how an omnipotent being could screw up so royally?

Consider this that was spoken from a famous rider whose name escapes me: "It is not the things in the bible that I do not understand that bother me, it is the things that I do".

You're thinking of Mark Twain. Here's another, from Bernard Shaw: "No public man believes that the Bible means what it says: he is always convinced that it says what he means" - I'm sure we could trade quotes all week but it won't really get us anywhere.

Before you run to verses to find apparent contradictions, let us discuss section of scriptures such as Ro 1:18-31, 3:1-21, 4:1-6:23; Jn 3:1-21, Gal 1:1-24? As you can see, I am not about to run anyone around to single verses from all over the place so that I can come to any conclusion I want. What about it? There are NO ERRORS in the bible, ie the KJV!

No, don't just gloss over the contradictions - if this is the perfect word of God it would be impossible to find any contradictions regardless of how hard you look. The very fact that we can demands an explanation and casts doubt on the claims of omnipotence. Let's just take a single example shall we…

I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever. (Jeremiah 3:12)

…and…

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever. (Jeremiah 17:4)

…two statements from God, both saying completely different things - a few options spring to mind in explaining this:

1. God was lying the first time round and in fact he does keep his anger forever (He's perfect but He lies)
2. God forgot about what he said in 3:12 by the time he got to 17:4 (He's perfect, apart from the poor memory)
3. God was wrong about not keeping his anger forever and had to correct himself when he got really pissed off later (He's perfect, but gets things wrong)

...I'm sure there are other ways to interpret this, but none will be able to get around the fact that if this book is the perfect word of God telling you everything you need to know it needs to be unequivocal. It is not.

But this is all besides the point, even if the Bible was flawless in it's logic, even if I agreed that the passages you list were shining examples of the highest order (rather than ugly threats of the lowest order) - you would still need to demonstrate somehow that it is in fact a true account of events which you cannot do just by referencing the Bible. Explain to me why the Bible ought to be believed more than any other holy book - they all say similar things to claim their own veracity - how have you determined that it's not the Hindus who have it right?

EVERYTHING that has to do with the origin of life is taken by FAITH. Creationism is much more logical than evolution. You really have to have faith to believe in that nonsense.

Evolution says nothing about the origins of life at all, it just describes how life develops over time. Might be an idea to understand what you are criticising first? You claim creationism is more logical than evolution - in what way?

I hear that evolution has "demonstrable proof". What they have is a side show started by a monkey man who as a racist put black people and Jews on the bottom of the totem pole. No, the book is correct, the Lord made his creation "after its own kind".

I think you confuse things, evolution says nothing about a 'totem pole' - it explains how different races come to exist, but makes no value judgements based on that information. And please don't pretend that the Bible hasn't been used throughout history to support racism and bigotry.

Also, you say you 'hear that evolution has demonstrable proof' - ever taken a moment to check it out at all, or does your research stop at your silly totem pole idea?

Would you complain if you were reading Chaucer or Shakespeare?

Well yes if people started speaking like that outside of direct quotes!

The KJV bible was written using words that had a purity of power and exactness, with an English vocabulary that was simple, yet with sentence structures that are so specific in composition and grammar. The KJV bible is more than impressive, its logic and power cannot be matched by ANYTHING ever written or will ever be written.

You're really sold on this aren't you - I'm guessing you don't read much, I can think of numerous books that surpass the Bible in all those areas. You are very good at making these bold unequivocal statements but offer nothing to back it up - tell me how it is so logical? Also, why the KJV, why not any other Bible?

An atheist does not exist. He is a figment of ones imagination. To be "a"-theist would logically mean that God would have to exist, you just do not want to believe him.

Rubbish. By your logic the fact you don't believe in Shiva but others do must be proof that Shiva does in fact exist, you just don't want to believe him. Adam Kemp goes into more detail above - your 'logic' isn't logical!

Saying there is "no God" is a logical fallacy created by ones excuse to do what he wants to do without believing he has to give an account.

So you don't understand what a logical fallacy is either then.

So men such as Hitler, Pol-pot, Stalin, the Popes, etc are just going to get away with millions they killed?

Some of these men where Christian and followed the Bible, others were not. The only thing you can draw from this is that people can do bad things regardless of what they believe. It would be nice to think that those who deal out injustice got some kind of payback in an afterlife - but that's just wishful thinking.

The human race is the greatest example of STUPIDITY because it believes that "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes".

Did I miss a meeting? I very rarely meet anyone who thinks like that, and even those few who do don't actually live like it because society as a whole lays down laws of conduct - nothing to do with the Bible.

If there is no God, I would take the side of those type of men! But I am thankful that the Lord "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

So if you didn't have the Bible you'd automatically run around doing everything the Bible tells you not to do? If that's true I pity you - do you really need to be told what to do?

If the bible was a fable, it is the best way to live!

Which way? Give me some evidence that your interpretation (whatever that may be) is the right one and the other Christian sects are wrong and I'll evaluate your claims on their merits.

"George, please use the "quote" feature. It's hard to tell what you're saying and what other people are. Just select some text and hit "Quote" (right above the comment text area). "

--I have no idea what you are talking about. There is no "Quote" selection above the comment area.

"Really, well I'd like to hear some explaining done then - you can't just make a statement like that and not back it up with any evidence."

--Go to your site a pick ONE that you are having trouble with and I will comment on it.

"I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever. (Jeremiah 3:12)

…and…

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever. (Jeremiah 17:4)

two statements from God, both saying completely different things - a few options spring to mind in explaining this:"

--No sir! A text without a context is a pretext. This is the type of ridiculous assertions I have read and heard for years! If I said about you "What an idiot" and then two pages later I said about you "That was a brilliant thought", is that a contradiction? Of course not, but only in the minds of those that try to discredit something and will use any means they can to do so. Those verses are not hard to be understood IN CONTEXT.

--The one in Jer 3 says that IF you RETURN from your backsliddings and whoredoms, then will I be merciful to you.

--The one in Jer 17 speaks about the God who is a consuming fire and the children of Israel have given themselves over to the alters and groves (false gods- 17:2). And because they would not repent (v3), ie the Lord will give all thy treasures to spoil, therefore v4 says they will be DISCONTINUED from thine HERITAGE and therefore, that fire WILL BURN FOREVER! God means business, and he will turn you over to a reprobate mind, and his anger against you will burn forever! So, will you do what he asks in Jer 3 or will you "be turned into hell" in Jer 17?

"still need to demonstrate somehow that it is in fact a true account of events which you cannot do just by referencing the Bible."

--Oh come on now! With so much archeology proving so much of the bible since the bible IS a history book, you have no leg to stand on.

"You claim creationism is more logical than evolution - in what way?"

--EVERYTHING that man creates has a beginning, does it not? How did every building built begin? How does mathematics work? If you studied any subject, did it not have structure and order? Man CREATES because he came from a CREATOR! Everything you see around you demonstrates this obvious fact. To be an evolutionist, you have to actually be TAUGHT against COMMON SENSE! I mean, men that live in the jungle have more sense than evolutionists! The reason for it is so that man can do what he pleases, having no account to a God who just might do what he says, ie put you in a place that is made for a rebellious man.

"It would be nice to think that those who deal out injustice got some kind of payback in an afterlife - but that's just wishful thinking."

--Therefore, as the bible says "What advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

"Give me some evidence that your interpretation (whatever that may be) is the right one and the other Christian sects are wrong and I'll evaluate your claims on their merits."

--In my last response, I gave you a list of sections of the bible to discuss. In reading any of those, you will have no problem in understanding what they say! Of course, like most who I have challenged in similar areas, they have ears to hear, but they refuse to hear what the scriptures say. I tell you what, you chose any one of those sections and YOU tell me what it says, and maybe I might not even have to correct you!

Your shot.

--EVERYTHING that man creates has a beginning, does it not?

Yes, the bible does have a beginning.

Ok, look at the box that you type in when you're writing a response. Right above that box (INSIDE the yellow area, right under your name) are 4 buttons: "Bold", "Italic", "Quote", "Link". You can select something you've typed and hit one of those buttons to apply that style. So to quote someone you copy/paste what they wrote into your comment, then select it and click "Quote".

It sounds like you think that the Bible is true because there is some archaeological evidence backing up some of the historical claims. Do you know the difference between an historical claim (like "the Israelites lived in location X at time T") and a theological claim (such as "God hates sin")? One can be backed up by evidence, and the other can't. Even if every single historical claim in the Bible was backed up by evidence (which is far from true; in fact some of it is directly contradicted by evidence), then that still doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever for its theological claims. Evidence only supports what it supports. It doesn't support other claims that happen to be made in the same book. We judge each claim by how likely it is weighed against how much evidence there is supporting it. The more fantastic the claim the more evidence we need to support it.

Right above that box (INSIDE the yellow area, right under your name) are 4 buttons

I think you need to go through a probationary period before they appear? - It's been a while I can't recall. - In the meantime George you can do the same manually as follows (just remove the — underscores when you do it for real, I've put them in to illustrate the point.)…

<_blockquote_> quoted text goes here <_/blockquote _>

To your point Adam, I completley agree. Another way of looking at it is: The Spiderman story describes New York city pretty accurately and you can go and look at the evidence yourself - but Spiderman doesn't therefore exist. Fiction can be set in real places, some of what the Bible says is set in real places, but it's still fiction buddy!

As to the rest of your points George - I'll respond later, bit busy at the mo...

In the meantime George, here's a few questions…

Go to your site a pick ONE that you are having trouble with and I will comment on it.

Keep up, that's what we're doing already…

A text without a context is a pretext. This is the type of ridiculous assertions I have read and heard for years! If I said about you "What an idiot" and then two pages later I said about you "That was a brilliant thought", is that a contradiction? Of course not, but only in the minds of those that try to discredit something and will use any means they can to do so. Those verses are not hard to be understood IN CONTEXT.

Listen, I've read all these verses in context, stop assuming I haven't - I have read exactly the same book as you and can perfectly well assess if something is a contradiction or not - the ridiculous assertion is your own my friend, when you warp the words to suit your meaning - as Bernard Shaw remarked! You accuse me of ignoring context and then in your example you ignore the fact that the statement I refer to is not related to the context you mention…

The one in Jer 3 says that IF you RETURN from your backsliddings and whoredoms, then will I be merciful to you.

If you're talking about respecting the context, use the whole quote: Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

You are correct that the bit where he says "I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you" He is talking about doing so in response to an action, however He then goes on the make a flat statement "for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever" - This bit, the bit I originally referred to, is not conditional on anything, it is a statement plain and simple: I am God, This is how I behave. It does not say "I will not keep this anger forever" or "I will not keep anger forever in this case" He is talking about the nature of His anger, and that it doesn't last forever.

Now, fast forward to 17:4… "And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever." - Now, in this case, His statement is indeed in a wider context but that is irrelevant as He has already made flat statement that "I will not keep my anger forever", and yet here He is with an anger that "Will burn forever".

There's no way you can cut it otherwise, in Jeremiah 3:12 He makes a flat statement about how His anger doesn't last forever, and here in Jeremiah 17:4 he's saying that it'll burn forever. That is a contradiction, if this is a perfect book free from error then you have a problem.

Now, it is important for you to understand that all this is irrelevant - I don't disbelieve the Bible because it has some contradictions in it, I simply use that to point out that it is not as infallible as you may like to believe. If we both pretend that the Bible is in fact flawless in it's internal logic, you still have to demonstrate that it is anything other than the work of Men. Which brings us to your next point…

Oh come on now! With so much archeology proving so much of the bible since the bible IS a history book, you have no leg to stand on.

Right, not only do I have both legs intact, you are so far gone with this statement you barely have a functional limb of any description…

1. The Bible is not a history book, it is an historic book, there's a difference: A History book of any merit will evaluate various sources of evidence from the past and use this to put forward conclusions drawn from it. An Historic book may, depending on it's accuracy, be one of those sources and the weight given to it's claims will be weighted according to corroborating evidence. The Bible falls into the latter camp and is frequently beyond inaccurate and in to the realms of fantasy - and that's just the NT.

2. As pointed out in a previous post, there may well be a lot in the Bible that is historically accurate, but this is irrelevant. Spiderman takes place in New York city but you would be a fool to think that proof of the existence of New York was therefor proof of the existence of Spiderman.

3. If you are accepting that archaeology is a valid way of assessing the veracity of the past you can't pick and choose where that applies. If the archaeological consensus in favour of biblical facts is of a certain weight, then presumably anything else with equal or higher weight will have just as much validity, right? So, with that in mind, what do you think of the overwhelming archaeological evidence for things older than the beginning of biblical time?

Next up, evolution…

EVERYTHING that man creates has a beginning, does it not?

Yes, well spotted.

How did every building built begin?

Someone decided they wanted a building.

How does mathematics work?

Is this going anywhere…?

If you studied any subject, did it not have structure and order?

Well, I've studied the mind of woman but as yet… no, seriously: In most cases yes, and I guess even Chaos theory is about looking for order in chaos - although that doesn't imply it's necessarily been found.

Man CREATES because he came from a CREATOR! Everything you see around you demonstrates this obvious fact.

See, now you're jumping from broadly accurate statements to utter nonsense. What, in any of those statements indicates that "man creates because he came from a creator"? Nothing I see around me demonstrates this "fact" at all. I see lots of things that have been created, and I can trace some of them back to a human instigator. So what - that's not how logical extrapolation works!

To be an evolutionist, you have to actually be TAUGHT against COMMON SENSE!

Well, not really - the whole theory came about in the first place because it was the only one explanation that made sense to a committed Christian who took the time to look at the evidence. But why are we suddenly jumping from the subject of creation to the subject of evolution? Evolutionary theory says nothing about the creation of life at all, it simply describes how life develops from simple things to complex things. The most it can be said to demonstrate is that life when it did start would have been simpler than it is now, and we can extrapolate this back to single cell organisms etc.

As to your claims about "common sense", lots of things that are true do not appear to make common sense. If I look out at the world around me it looks as though it's flat - and I can keep travelling for as long as I like and it's still flat - it must be common sense that the world is flat (just like it says in the Bible - a circle). Obviously! Or that the sun goes around the earth... All these things are common sense, and wrong.

I mean, men that live in the jungle have more sense than evolutionists! The reason for it is so that man can do what he pleases, having no account to a God who just might do what he says, ie put you in a place that is made for a rebellious man.

You are attributing intentions behind the theory. Darwin, a man who believed in God, held back his theory for 12 years until he released it because as a Christian he found it too problematic - but in the end he couldn't escape the logic behind it. No-one said 'I want to live without giving account to god' and therefore came up with a theory of evolution!

I suggest that all your shouting about how men in the jungle have "more sense" does nothing other than illustrate your own lack of knowledge on the matter. Go and read a book on the subject, read up at talk origins - anything. No one is going to tell you how to think, but you'd have a hard time saying it doesn't make sense when you know anything at all about it.

In my last response, I gave you a list of sections of the bible to discuss. In reading any of those, you will have no problem in understanding what they say! Of course, like most who I have challenged in similar areas, they have ears to hear, but they refuse to hear what the scriptures say. I tell you what, you chose any one of those sections and YOU tell me what it says, and maybe I might not even have to correct you!

As I said already, quoting from the Bible does nothing to demonstrate it's truth! Do you not get it yet?

I have read all those sections and all the rest and I had no problem understanding what was said. Just like I had no problem understanding what the Sikh scriptures said either, or the Hindu scripture. If I point you to any of those (or the words of any other religion) you will be no more convinced of their truth regardless of how eloquently they put their case - you know the idea of the earth being created from a sea of milk as in Hindu history is silly, why does the idea of it being created in 6 days make any more sense? You have ears to hear the words of the Sikh gurus, but you refuse to hear what they say! - can you not see how pointless this sort of empty statement is?

Now, come back to me with one piece of evidence that the Bible is true that doesn't appear in the Bible and we can continue. I'll say it one more time - you cannot prove that the Bible is true or that God exists just because the Bible says it is true and that God exists. You need more than that to convince any reasonable, sensible man. Even a man in a jungle can see that!

however He then goes on the make a flat statement "for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever" - This bit, the bit I originally referred to, is not conditional on anything, it is a statement plain and simple: I am God, This is how I behave. It does not say "I will not keep this anger forever" or "I will not keep anger forever in this case" He is talking about the nature of His anger, and that it doesn't last forever.

Yes it is! It is conditional based on context and therefore the statement stands as written bounded by its conditions. It is you who want to find issue with it because you run over somewhere else looking for these apparent contradictions! The Bible is a DANGEROUS book in the hands of the ilks such as you who want to find error. My God says "I will send you strong delusions that you will believe a lie".

Well, not really - the whole theory came about in the first place because it was the only one explanation that made sense to a committed Christian who took the time to look at the evidence.

Right, yea, a committed Christian. Since you are so committed, please explain to me the gospel of the grace of God? Do you have a testimony of your salvation?

Darwin, a man who believed in God, held back his theory for 12 years until he released it because as a Christian he found it too problematic - but in the end he couldn't escape the logic behind it.

As I have said, the devils believe in God! You have all kind of "Christian" religious devils like the intellectual Pharisees and Sadducee's of Jesus Christ day. They had all kinds of logical questions to assess the validity of Jesus Christ. The logic behind evolution is of the Devil and the proof is what it has produced in this nation. It has produced either a bunch of stuffed-shirt, smart, intelligent fools (For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.) or a bunch of wicked, vile, rebellious men who love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. And as Jesus Christ said about all of them, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

I'll say it one more time - you cannot prove that the Bible is true or that God exists just because the Bible says it is true and that God exists.

This is a fruitless time for both you and I. You just think you are God and can assess everything according to some egotistical logical knowledge that you possess! I heard your foolishness and high-mindedness concerning your "intellectual plea" for all those who have been educated. I have not come to call the intellectuals, but sinners to repentance. I will leave you with this, What are you willing to die for? If I put a gun to your head or someone you dearly love and say, "You will do....", that will tell me everything I need to know about you or anyone else. As for me, "To live is Christ and to die is gain". I love not this world neither the things in it, and I have been preaching in the streets of America for 7 years against many who HATE the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible. I love Him more than ANYTHING and therefore I am willing to DIE for what I believe! The difference between a Bible Believer and some Pseudo-Intellectual fake is that I will not kill you for what you believe! That is what religionists do. I live by the motto "Vengeance is mine, I WILL repay saith the Lord". At that point, I will rejoice with King David knowing "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." Hope you get saved before that time since God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". Good day.

This is a fruitless time for both you and I. You just think you are God and can assess everything according to some egotistical logical knowledge that you possess!

What a ridiculous accusation, simply illustrating you have no idea what you are arguing over. You are blinded by your theology and cannot accept anything else, no matter what the proof behind it was. Your type would deny evolution no matter what proof science offers so in that regard you are right, we are all wasting our time here.

As one parting comment, I offer this: Many of us have read the bible, despite what you think. I myself was raised very strict Catholic, an alter boy for 3 years (never molested, thankfully). Wookie and Adam are also obviously well versed as well. Yet YOU are the one who refuses to learn anything about evolution, nor the science behind it. We have done our homework, why don't you? Too often have I heard your ilk say "I don't need to learn about evolution, I have the Bible", so until such a time as you can debate logically on the matter rather than throwing out bible versus (none of which contradict evolution by the way), go take a flying @!$%#. Yes, I am drunk and pissed.

Well, not really - the whole theory came about in the first place because it was the only one explanation that made sense to a committed Christian who took the time to look at the evidence.

Right, yea, a committed Christian. Since you are so committed, please explain to me the gospel of the grace of God? Do you have a testimony of your salvation?

George C, he was talking about Darwin, not himself.

I'll say it one more time - you cannot prove that the Bible is true or that God exists just because the Bible says it is true and that God exists.

This is a fruitless time for both you and I.

Yup, these discussion tend to go round in circles, no-one is ever convinced of the other side's point of view. But George C, I feel compelled to say that no atheist I know of has ever thought of themselves as God as you suggest. I certainly don't - the word means that we don't believe in any gods at all, not even being one ourselves.

The difference between a Bible Believer and some Pseudo-Intellectual fake is that I will not kill you for what you believe!

Crusades anyone? Yes, these were committed by religion, but that religion was based upon readings of the Bible, and in reference to passages ordering the killing of unbelievers.

As one parting comment, I offer this: Many of us have read the bible, despite what you think. I myself was raised very strict Catholic, an alter boy for 3 years (never molested, thankfully). Wookie and Adam are also obviously well versed as well. Yet YOU are the one who refuses to learn anything about evolution, nor the science behind it. We have done our homework, why don't you?

Thank you jimi, I have so often argued with Christians over what their Bible says, only to be proved right. Heads up all Christians - do not think that us infidels have chosen not to believe on some silly whim. Many of us have put an awful lot of thought into our decision, and have read your good book widely - indeed doing so is what led me to unbelief.

Yes it is! It is conditional based on context and therefore the statement stands as written bounded by its conditions. It is you who want to find issue with it because you run over somewhere else looking for these apparent contradictions! The Bible is a DANGEROUS book in the hands of the ilks such as you who want to find error. My God says "I will send you strong delusions that you will believe a lie".

No it isn't. You apparently don't know what the word 'context' means. I can see that the statement is made within the context of something else, that doesn't stop it being a statement of fact. If you can't grasp this simple thing then you can't be trusted to interpret anything correctly as it is evident you don't fully understand English. Also, I don't "want to find error" - I simply read and come across errors, it takes willful manipulation to contort meanings to hide them as you have been doing - either that or a weak grasp of the English language.

This is a fruitless time for both you and I. You just think you are God and can assess everything according to some egotistical logical knowledge that you possess!

You have so far been trying to use logic and reason to illustrate why the bible is correct - what has this entire discussion about context been if not exactly that - you also say that evolution isn't logical and that creationism is - you can't have it both ways; either logic and reason are acceptable ways to assess something is true, or you ought to stop trying to assess everything according to some egotistical logical knowledge that you possess.

What has happened here is that you have tried to put forward appeals to logic and reason, been shown to be very wrong about it, and then rather than admit a flaw in your reasoning have turned on the very tools you tried to use and called them 'egotistical'! Hypocrite!

I have not come to call the intellectuals, but sinners to repentance

That's a direct rip-off from Matthew 9:13! And you evidently don't really understand it if you think it's reasonable to substitute 'righteous ' for 'intellectuals' - by that logic God is fine with intellectuals - go read the verse!

I live by the motto "Vengeance is mine, I WILL repay saith the Lord". At that point, I will rejoice with King David knowing "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

That sounds an awful lot like pride George, and arrogance. I hope you're ready to explain that away when you are judged - 2 Corinthians might help point out the error of your boastful ways!

The rest of your rant consists of childish threats from fairy tales. It seems apparent to me now that your fall-back method of convincing people the Bible is right is to use fear and threats - try frighten us into believing. It has obviously worked on you… You seem to be a scared and little man George, longing for mom & pop to tell you what is right and wrong - in the absence of any ability to work life out for yourself you turn to the Bible as a surrogate authority - time to grow up George.

The rest of your rant consists of childish threats from fairy tales. It seems apparent to me now that your fall-back method of convincing people the Bible is right is to use fear and threats - try frighten us into believing. It has obviously worked on you… You seem to be a scared and little man George, longing for mom & pop to tell you what is right and wrong - in the absence of any ability to work life out for yourself you turn to the Bible as a surrogate authority - time to grow up George.

You bet I was scared to end up in the lake of fire which I deserved! I do not need to convince you of anything, you want to go to hell, so be it! Here is a TREAT from the Lord God himself:

Pr 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

The only wisdom you have is that "You are wise in your own conceits". And to the rest of you reading these posts, here is a finishing THREAT from the Lord God:

2 Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

When most of you will end up at the Great White Throne Judgment, I will personally see you there! At that time, I can look you right in your face and not blink an eye when the Lord Jesus Christ pronounces your final damnation. Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

When most of you will end up at the Great White Throne Judgment, I will personally see you there! At that time, I can look you right in your face and not blink an eye when the Lord Jesus Christ pronounces your final damnation.

This is when I lose all respect for you as a person. Not only do you think people are worthy of eternal punishment, but you seem to take joy in the thought of watching us be damned. What's even more sad is that you think you have the moral high ground. You are truly a sick person, and I feel sorry for you.

Isn't it odd.

"The lord loves us all and teaches love and forgiveness and how to kiss puppies"

"I can't wait to see you burn in hell you heathen scum, when my lord god wreaks his furious vengeance upon you."

You're a sadly deluded and quite awful person, George.

I am in good company with Jesus Christ. They actually KILLED him for putting everyone in their place. Most of you are deluded by your own fantasies of SELF. Like that Adam Kemp, who thinks he is worthy of going to heaven based on some delusional idealism of God by believing "God loves everybody, because God is love and therefore one way or another God owes man heaven because in reality, man in his essence is good". The only sick person is you! My moral ground stands on the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone. I am going to heaven because he said if you repent of what you are, a sinner, I will cleanse you from ALL your unrighteousness and give you my perfect righteousness. Therefore, in the Lords eyes he sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ is me and by the grace of God, through the Spirit that abides in me, I live that life out according to Ep 2:1-10 and many other places. So, the reality of watching men get damned is because since I am part of the bride of Christ, I love what he loves and hates what he hates! And friend, if you turn your back on Jesus Christ in this life, YOU are his ENEMY in the next life and your place is with your father, the Devil, because you love him since you rejected in unbelief the Son of God. What ever you do, do not feel sorry for me. I have a home in heaven FOREVER, which will consist of all that is good, with all joy, no diseases, no more death, no more hatred of God, etc. You will take the antithesis of all that is good with you to the lake of fire. In other words, you are truly a SICK person for rejecting all that the Lord God has done and accomplished on the cross, shedding his blood for the remission of your sins, and imparting eternal life into those who will HUMBLE themselves and REPENT of their wickedness and turn to the LIVING God of all mankind. As he said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM! Unfortunately, for most of you, you will find out that I was the most loving person that you ever met. I cried FIRE and you did not listen. What you will find out is the pure hatred you will have for one another, and all those that you listened to, finally realizing that the Bible had absolute authority of EVERYTHING that EXISTS! Therefore, I leave you with this, repent or perish.

You use the word delusional as though you have a grasp on reality....

Get a clue. Your sick rant proves how delusional you actually are. You can threaten me and every other heathen on this website with your delusions. Quoting versus and worrying about fairy tales shows everyone here who really is sick. YOU

We all perish, I just have nothing I feel the need to repent for. Maybe your life was so screwed up that Jesus was your only way out, but I have a pretty good life as is and see no need for your "repent or perish" nonsense. Have a nice life.

Every conception you have about us is utter bull@!$%#. It's as simple as that.

I've read through this thread in awe and amazement but could not leave it alone. It was quite interesting in content and spectacle. I was tempted to jump in a few times but didn't want to barge in on someone else's debate – besides, those who did comment did so better than I could have.

However, at this point, there's nothing left to learn. George's last rant provided nothing that one could extract any intelligence from.

George: if this is truly your belief and the way you live your life, I feel sorry for you and recommend some help. You have gone beyond the devout, beyond the fundamentalism, beyond the fanatical, even beyond delusional.

You remind me of a long-term drug addict. So addicted to your drug that reality has warped and all reason is useless.

You remind me of a long-term drug addict. So addicted to your drug that reality has warped and all reason is useless.

That is exactly what's going on here. I bet you George was an addict of something that 12-stepped his way to jesus, and now that's his addiction. Addictive personalites must substitute one drug for another.

At that time, I can look you right in your face and not blink an eye when the Lord Jesus Christ pronounces your final damnation

I have to agree (well, in broad terms, anyway) with George's theology: that those who do not repent and receive the gift of eternal life from God through the Lord Jesus will be eternally lost. But I am ashamed at the cold and heartless way in which he presents it.

Exactly, Paddy. The point at which a Christian goes from "you will be damned" to "and I will enjoy watching it" is when that person becomes a sick, twisted, immoral person in my mind. You cannot claim the moral high-ground while saying that you will enjoy seeing someone be damned for eternity.

Sadly, this is not a rare point of view. I have encountered many evangelical Christians and many of them have this point of view. They treat non-believers as inherently evil, and they resort to this vengeful attitude. Basically, they make the damnation issue personal: "You will be damned, and so I will get the last laugh. Take that!"

I refuse to take part in a discussion with someone with that kind of mindset. It's a waste of time.

Sadly, this is not a rare point of view.

Adam, you're right. But it seems to be a phenomenon that is popular in the USA. At least in our part of Brazil, I'm glad to say that "christians" like that are the minority.

I refuse to take part in a discussion with someone with that kind of mindset. It's a waste of time.

I agree.

Better stop now -- it feels weird to agree with you, mate :-)

I have to agree (well, in broad terms, anyway) with George's theology: that those who do not repent and receive the gift of eternal life from God through the Lord Jesus will be eternally lost. But I am ashamed at the cold and heartless way in which he presents it.

Some individuals because of their PROUD hearts need to hear it EXACTLY as presented. I have dealt with atheists, evolutionists, religionists while preaching in the streets of America. What I presented in ABSOLUTE truth! They are the typical Pharisees who deny the true God and the Lord Jesus Christ. They have been intellectually dealt with before and now need the following:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

The truth OFFENDS these individuals. You just do not want to "cry outloud and spare not" knowing that they will burn FOREVER if they do not see the wickedness and their demise. The wrath of God abideth on them NOW (Jn 3). The reason Jesus Christ did not come to condemn the world, it is because it is already condemned. You (Patty) and others want to play it SAFE, you know the typical LIE perpetuated by typical "Christianity", ie, "God loves EVERYBODY". That is from the pit of hell itself! Gods love is available in ONE person, the Lord Jesus Christ. God so loveD the world... It is PAST TENSE. The time he loveD the world was approx. 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ, was beaten, ridiculed, punished, and hung on the cross, shedding his precious blood, that for all that call upon him in REPENTANCE will possess eternal life. Believest thou this? Am I your enemy because I tell you the truth?

There is NO place in that bible that tells you to "share" your faith! What a man is supposed to do is to PREACH the whole council of God, therefore "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." You see, all the comments made about what I said is FOOLISHNESS to them who are going to hell! And you Christians sit here wasting your time arguing about evolution! Most of them have made up their minds long ago, and what they need is the "sword of the spirit which is the word of God" to stab them in their hearts! Then maybe, the Lord can show them grace since "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

And as they said of Paul, they can continue with me. I KNOW I am right and therefore I cry "Get out of the FIRE, You will die in your sins, Repent and believe the gospel"!:

Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

George, my alias is Paddy, not Patty. I agree that we need to preach, and preach the truth (I Cor 1:18-31 is dear to me). I preach constantly, including in places where there is no Christian assembly (I'm involved in so-called "pioneer" work). But I preach because I hate to think of sinners going to hell - not because I'm glad they'll be damned.

Preach with a tear in your eye, brother, not a sneer on your lip!

May God bless you, and help you to understand where I'm coming from.

I cried FIRE and you did not listen.

No, you cried FIRE and we all got annoyed with you wasting our time when there is no smoke, no flames, no heat - no fire!

But I preach because I hate to think of sinners going to hell - not because I'm glad they'll be damned.

Preach with a tear in your eye, brother, not a sneer on your lip!

Paddy, sorry about mixing up your name. Both are true, Brother. It depends on the attitude and heart of the people. When I was preaching in the African streets, EVERYONE listened intently to what was preached. They had a "fear of God" and therefore I did preach with "a tear in my eye". These people had nothing in comparison to us, but they had TENDER HEARTS and therefore were dealt with COMPASSIONATELY. But these egotistical intellectual types of proud, wicked, and boastful Americans who think the Lord God is a joke are going to get the "Sword of the Spirit", just like the Pharisees got from John the Baptist. When God finally deals with them, they will know the TERROR of the Lord! As an example, the first words out of John the Baptist mouth were:

Mat 3:7 O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

It is important that we gage the type of individuals we are preaching to. Seeing a man, lying in the streets and starving to death does NOT DESERVE the ministration of the spirit these individuals get in this forum. As the bible says:

> One type:
Jude 23: And of some have compassion, making a difference:

> Second type:
Jude 24: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Hope you understand.

> One type:
Jude 23: And of some have compassion, making a difference:

> Second type:
Jude 24: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Translation:

One type - The credulous.
Second type - The rest.

ie: Try nicely-nicely first, then if the person you are talking to dares to expect something in the way of evidence or proof then bring on the vengeful hatred and anger.

Also,

Seeing a man, lying in the streets and starving to death does NOT DESERVE the ministration of the spirit these individuals get in this forum.

… up to the moment where that man lying in the street makes it clear he's not going to fall for the fanciful nonsense you present, at which point he probably deserves to be dying in the streets right?

But these egotistical intellectual types of proud, wicked, and boastful Americans who think the Lord God is a joke are going to get the "Sword of the Spirit"

Firstly, we're not all American. Secondly, you make assumptions without any knowledge - you assume that someone who doesn't believe your nonsense must be 'wicked', 'proud' and 'boastful' - or 'intellectual'. That is nothing but bitterness plain and simple, you fail to convince someone, so they must be proud, wicked and boastful - those terms more accurately refer to you - I for one am not so proud to claim 'absolute certainty' on anything yet you are so confident in your arrogant 'wisdom' that you will listen to no-one.

You don't need to be 'intellectual' to criticise the Bible, all you need is the basic skills of reason and a willingness to apply it evenly to life experience. It's not complicated, it doesn't require a degree and it doesn't make you arrogant. This is something a car mechanic or a waitress can do just as well as a Harvard professor. If you hold patents then you are just as much an 'intellectual' as any other.

You do not beleive in Allah - does that not make you a proud, wicked and boastful American who thinks Allah is a joke?

They had a "fear of God" and therefore I did preach with "a tear in my eye".

Why should a purportedly Good God be feared? In politics, loyalty through fear is a hallmark of totalitarian dictatorships. Maybe that falls under your definition of Good, but not mine.

As far as I'm concerned, you can take your Boogeyman God and shove it. I much prefer Paddy's God over yours.

You don't need to be 'intellectual' to criticise the Bible, all you need is the basic skills of reason and a willingness to apply it evenly to life experience. It's not complicated, it doesn't require a degree and it doesn't make you arrogant.

It makes you arrogant according to the Bible. But since you are your own God, you are right, your are not arrogant, I am.

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

From the bibles perspective, you are one of the most arrogant individuals. My "arrogance" is YOUR perception. And really, who do you think you are? I am just as ambassador for the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. He has spoken, I have listened, then tell you what he has said. It really is not that complicated.

… up to the moment where that man lying in the street makes it clear he's not going to fall for the fanciful nonsense you present, at which point he probably deserves to be dying in the streets right?

Whether he deserves to be dying is not up to me. If I found him in the street in that condition, I would FIRST try to help him, and THEN preach to him. I would do just as the good Samaritan did to anyone whether I know him or not. Even if it is you wookie, and you hated my guts, I would still help you if I could. Unfortunately, it is also true you will still end up in hell because of your rebellious heart. That is Gods terms, not mine. If you decide not to believe them, I will let you live your life as you please. Do NOT get me tied in with those Catholic and Protestant devils who would FORCE you IF they could to control you. I give you both sides of the coin... Choose you this day whom ye shall serve.

Maybe that falls under your definition of Good, but not mine.

Your definition of good is yours, but here is the Lord Gods:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So, your idea of good is messed up because your God is YOU. You put the Lord God on YOUR spotlight and judge him instead of the other way around. And with comments of telling him to shove it, and your mouth full of bitterness and cursing, you will get your reward. Ye shall die in your sins.

Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This thread is about evolution. Could you please take the preaching elsewhere? This has gone on far too long. No one cares. You're not saving any souls in this thread, so please stop posting Bible quotes.

Precisely - enough with the Bible quotes!

George - I know that you think what you say makes perfect sense in your Biblically based logic, and to be fair I think you have a more intellectually honest interpretation of the Bible than many of the more liberal Christians I encounter who try to ignore the unpleasant bits (although I notice you stop short of supporting the stoning to death of various parties, or at least I assume so…)

But, all that aside - can you just answer a simple question for us please. You say that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true. A devout Muslim will tell you the Koran is true because the Koran says it is true. Other religions will say similar things based on their own internal justifications. You can point to various passages in your book to say that you're interpretation is correct, and the Muslim will point to various passages to say that they are correct. Each has equal validity from an objective point of view - when weighing them up what convinces you that one book that says it is true is more true than another book that says it is true?

How can you be so sure that the Bible is the right one, what - outside of the Bible - convinces you that it is true? Any answer that includes any Biblical references or quotes will not be accepted.

I want to say that this will be my last response on this thread since as one poster reminded me that this thread concerns evolution. Since I am not interested in debating this subject, it is only right that if anyone cannot stay on the subject, he should bow out. I will therefore bow out.

Each has equal validity from an objective point of view - when weighing them up what convinces you that one book that says it is true is more true than another book that says it is true?

The answer to that question is not that difficult. All religions have espoused some form of doctrine that teach a humanistic form of belief with each one attempting to appease their gods with a "good life". The question that no man can answer is, "What and who is good?" Whose criteria do you use? If there is a god, what criteria does he use? Where would this God draw the line? What would he base his judgments on? Who gets in? How much "good" does an individual have to do to deserve being with this God? Also, why would anyone think that if this God existed, that he would have more than one way? If you or I were God, than would we not set OUR criteria? Since we would be "on top", that would mean that we have the correct views and judgments about all things? Who would be greater than God? If he was greater, would then he not be god and then set his own agenda? The point is that the God of the Bible set his criteria, and that is PERFECTION! His PERFECTION. And it is reasonable to believe based on the facts of life (killings, murders, hatred, variance, only the strong survive, abortion, sodomy, drunkenness, drug abuse, child molestation, etc etc etc) and that mankind for ~6000 years has been trying to get it right, resulting in its futile attempts have been nothing more than one BIG JOKE! Perfection? Yes, perfection in absolute failure. Then I listen to men, especially in America, exalt other men in their endeavours, and all the "good" they have done for what? Is their good better than yours? Again, what is good? Mankind's definition? Yes, at the end of the day, when men draw the line on what is good, it always draws the line BEHIND them. They are humble, not at the top, but certainly proud at the same time, ie not on the bottom. And the results, "Every man did that which is right in his OWN eyes"?

So, why do I embrace true biblical Christianity? One reason is that the God of the bible desires a RELATIONSHIP with his creation. And why do I reject all RELIGIONS? That's simple, none of them have EVER done ANYTHING for mankind to help them out of the dilemma that we are in, ie we are going to die and nothing can stop it? What is the answer for life? As Solomon said, "But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity". Yes, vanity, since no one can stop death and the grave. Ah, but thanks be unto God who has given the victory. Their is a true God who cares, and has given life and it more abundantly. And he gave it to mankind freely, ie they failed, he made a way of escape. Did he have to do it? NO! He could send every man to hell, DESERVEDLY because he did not meet the standard, and he would be JUST in doing so! Freedom to make choices results in paying the consequences when wrong. Yet, as one of my favorite songs reads , "Amazing love! how can it be? That thou MY God shouldst die FOR ME?"

I could say much more, but at the end I believe the writers of the bible more than anyone or anything else. I believe they had the RELATIONSHIP with the Lord God that I have, by the words that have been written. I agree with this:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Go ahead, give me something better, than an undeserving man, living in his sin, would have the Creator of mankind die for him? He comes as a child, became poor that we might be made rich, dying, being buried and then arose from the dead! And there were 500 witnesses who saw him for 40 days and we have those writings 2000 years later!! That is why I believe the book. I do not have to read anything else. It is the same junk the devil sold Adam and Eve (Ye shall be as gods...), followed by the first religion, Abel who killed a sacrifice which was accepted and then Cain who gave his best, and then KILLED his brother because God DID NOT accept HIS sacrifice of "his goodness". Who hath known the mind of God except he reveal it.

I will let you get the last shot.

Bye for now.

Bye for now.

Well thank God for that!

So, why do I embrace true biblical Christianity? One reason is that the God of the bible desires a RELATIONSHIP with his creation. And why do I reject all RELIGIONS? That's simple, none of them have EVER done ANYTHING for mankind to help them out of the dilemma that we are in, ie we are going to die and nothing can stop it?

My parting shot to that is that you have obviously never studied buddhism, taoism, or hinduism. All have teachings along the same lines about life and meaning behind it, and what comes after. You have blinders on in that you do not study them all. That is the only kind of theist I truly respect, one who never stops questioning. Adieu.

Religion was created by men to control other men, for greed and for power, and to control the women.

Zaki, cheers. Religion has done much harm to humanity, granted. But organised religion's attempts to out-law the Bible in days gone by are an indication that the religious leaders were not convinced the Bible supported them!

I submit to you that the fault for the atrocities we've seen lies in religion, not the Bible.

the fault for the atrocities we've seen lies in religion, not the Bible.

I agree. it's not just that one, but I'm so sick of people's double standards on Gods.

aie aie aie. *frowns*

People are atheists about many Gods, we just go one God further.

I hate to make people cry (especially if they look great in bikinis) but the truth is, if you did not live in that Bible-Belt, you probably would not be an evangelical. if you lived in India, you'd probably be a Hindu. If you lived in Afghanistan, you'd probably be a Muslim.

If you lived on the Moon, you'd worship the Earth!

If i was lost in the forest as a baby and raised in the jungle by monkeys, and that life was the only one I knew, then the monkeys would be my gods.

ps. here's the scary one, you know, for the "oooooo....aaaaaaah" factor: if you were raised by Bin Laden, then the Wackos would be your Gods, and you'd do whatever OBL would say. He's doing it right now. Exploiting a bunch of children who grow up to be fanatics.

Zaki, I thought you knew I don't live in the Bible-belt (nor anywhere near it) -- I was born and brought up in the interior of Brazil, where I still live.

It surprises me to hear you attribute all religious behaviour to circumstantial causes. Do the majority of religious people just follow along, without a thought about what they're doing, happy to flow with the current? Yes. Does that mean I only believe in God because that's what everybody near me believes? Not by a long shot!

I hate to make people cry (especially if they look great in bikinis) but the truth is, if you did not live in that Bible-Belt, you probably would not be an evangelical. if you lived in India, you'd probably be a Hindu. If you lived in Afghanistan, you'd probably be a Muslim.

If you lived on the Moon, you'd worship the Earth!

I'm sorry, Paddy, did you confuse this "you" with you? The you is meant to religious people all around the world. I'm speaking to an audience here. The only reason why I strictly referred to Christianity, is because it is the most predominant religion where I live, America, and where the evangelicals can cause serious harm to this country. It's a country of laws where Separation of Church & State exist, America is not a "Christian Nation". Not to mention we have scary statistics where an insane amount of people believe that Climate Change means Jesus is coming back.

Zaki, I misunderstood you -- sorry :-)

yes.finally.

<blockquote> quote goes here </blockquote>

I'm sensing a problem with your ability to read... explains volumes.

Hey now, HTML isn't for everyone. Why, oh why, does Newsvine not have a WYSIWYG editor yet?

See, now you're just talking out of your ass.

If you are going to accuse the Lord God, you will have to do better than that flimisy excuse of a question.

Actually, we're asking you, a mere mortal, some very simple questions.

Why are there so many starving people in the world? Have you ever done anything to help a starving person? The reason is because their gods will not take care of them!

Ah ha! So if you believe in Christ, God will somehow materialize food in your fridge? If you actually stand behind your words, I dare you to try pure faith feeding, and see how well that goes.

They trust in false gods, let them take care of them!

Ah, right. Jesus is a baldfaced narcissist. Otherwise, if he were actually any sort of universally good entity, he'd help people who don't grovel at his feet.

since they do not want the Lord Jesus Christ to save them and be their God, the results are always NEGATIVE (ie, dying of aids, abortion, lung disease, etc. etc.)

Oh. Wow. Yep, God will save you from AIDS, lung disease, and any terminal illnesses falling into the "etc. etc" category. Oh, and if you don't believe in God, AIDS, lung disease, and "etc. etc." will totally strike down. And yeah, abortion, which naturally comes from heathenism, is totally always negative. I guess that's why there's so much debate, because it's so amazingly negative.

By the way, Jesus Christ fed in two different accounts a total of over 9,000 men NOT including their families!

Uh huh, and there are 6 billion (that's 6 million times 1000) people in the world. Think Jesus can feed them all? If He's so awesome at faith feeding, why are believers even bothering to buy food at the grocery store?

Why didn't Jesus save him? If God truly loves good Christians and saves them, why did he have to suffer so much and perish?

If he was saved, then he has eternal life! He has no problem now, set free from all his diseases. If you are a Christian, than you should know verses such as these:
"According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Why are there so many starving people in the world? Have you ever done anything to help a starving person? The reason is because their gods will not take care of them! They trust in false gods, let them take care of them! It is their choice, so since they do not want the Lord Jesus Christ to save them and be their God, the results are always NEGATIVE (ie, dying of aids, abortion, lung disease, etc. etc.) By the way, Jesus Christ fed in two different accounts a total of over 9,000 men NOT including their families!

Shewy, a whole 9000 huh? And the millions of starving Ethiopians? Or is their Christianity not the right kind of Christianity?

I really have to stop responding to conversations like this one, they just go round and round, my productivity is suffering.

I really have to stop responding to conversations like this one, they just go round and round, my productivity is suffering.

I know what you mean. Think of it as mental exercise! I don't think we can convince poor George here but any fence-sitters listening in will have now seen more evidence of religious lunacy to sway them to the side of reality! George is very nicely hoisting himself upon his own pittard!

If he was saved, then he has eternal life!

And by "life", you mean "death."

dungbeetlemania: I feel my IQ falling, too, but sometimes I stay in these conversations frankly out of awe. Awe that people such as George aren't just pulling an intellectual prank, and truly and honestly believe every word they say. No matter how many times I see it now, it's still mindblowing how many otherwise cogent people are sucked into self-righteous dogmatic idiocy.

It keeps my idealism about humanity's general intelligence in check.

Ok, that's right got up my nose. Re 53.5:

Don't. You DARE. Preach to me or anyone else. That the countless people I've watch suffer and 'perish' -- the countless graves I've stood over because of things like cancer... Don't you dare tell me that they are either free from their pain nor deserved to suffer.

It's a book. It's been re-written countless times by man. There is no solid fact in said book and I do not wish to be told that they should have gone through that and by your toss-headed definition of it, are still going through it because they aren't extremist Christians like yourself.

Take you bull@!$%# and shove it.

Hey, Robbie, take it easy, man. No point in meeting extreme words with extreme words -- it won't get you anywhere!

I know, and I partly apologise. But crap like that really gets down my throat especially since I've lost some people recently and know a few others on their way out. I'm usually good with this but yeah.

So my appo..gi.s. ;p

Cheers, mate. I know it's hard to deal with the loss of people who are dear to us.

I can agree with your comments on understanding, but the first part of your comment doesn't work, because beliefs aren't solely personal. They have consequences in the real world.

Why did you sign up for Newsvine for the sole reason of making this one single comment?

'wookie, all too often when I think of what I want to say, you've beaten me to it. At least it saves me the effort, all I have to do is vote!

heh heh, now if you could finish of the work I was supposed to be doing instead we're quits right… ;o)

That depends what it is... I don't do windows.

Me either, i'm a linux admin :)

To the Wise Wookie:

Oh, since you enjoy "contradictions" in the bible, here is another one for ya:

Isa. 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created
these things , that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them
all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in
power; not one faileth.

Psalms 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all
by their names.

Jeremiah 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the
sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my
servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Is 40 says he calls his stars by name, and in Ps 147 he telleth the number of stars, but yet in Jer 33 the Lord says the host of heaven CANNOT be numbered. But did he not say that he telleth the number of stars, which cannot be numbered??

But remember this:

1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Sinners -- namely astronomers -- count stars.

Little bunny, this is getting old now. :]